Monday, 28 April 2025

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

Thanks David,

Here's the diagram from the Victorian Railways website.

I notice that there were catch points in both tram lines.

Mal Rowe - still wondering what each lever did.


On 28/04/2025 14:18, espee8800 wrote:
As one who signal maintenance section actually covered Kooyong (and also Gardiner) all of the signalling equipment is railway. 

The railway preceded the trams by some years although both Kooyong and Gardiner signal boxes were provided when the trams appeared - Kooyong 30/5/1913 and Gardiner 5/12/1917. Electric trains came to the Darling line on 15/12/1922 and that's when the switching gear for the overhead was installed. 

At the time the only style of signal for these moves - effectively a shunt move across the railway - was the disc signals. In later years most were replaced by lights. These signals keep trams clear of the tramway square when the power is set for a train, the switching from 1500v to 600v is done by the catch point levers which also work the discs. Trams don't take kindly to 1500v DC. Trains would care about the 600 odd V though. 

Elsternwick signal box opened on 1/11/1883 and the trams arrived 12/11/1913, the permanent signal box was replaced by a temporary building on 30/8/1959 for the grade separation and it was abolished on 2/10/1960.

Sunday, 27 April 2025

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

On 27/04/2025 17:15, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
Thank you to every one for your replies. Now to my next, taxonomical, question: is it a railway or a tramway signal?! (It would have been operated by the railway signalman, I presume, or operated automatically when the gates went down, but applied to a tramway.)

I'll leave the taxonomy questions to others.  I have enough trouble trying to separate Railway - Tramway and Light Railway!

Here's a pic of the lever frame at Kooyong in 2004, when the crossing was still manually controlled.

Perhaps one of the signal gurus on the list may be able to tell us which lever did what.

Mal Rowe - who once applied for a job as a signalling engineer.

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

Thank you to every one for your replies. Now to my next, taxonomical, question: is it a railway or a tramway signal?! (It would have been operated by the railway signalman, I presume, or operated automatically when the gates went down, but applied to a tramway.)

David


On 27 Apr 2025, at 4:10 pm, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:

On 26/04/2025 19:23, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
I came across this photograph on Pinterest today. I suspect it has already been discussed on TDU, as it seems vaguely familiar. Is it a tramway signal, to indicate when to cross the railway line, perhaps?

Here's the old disc signal at Kooyong - now out of use.

You can see the current replacement - road traffic lights - with T lights.

Kooyong and Riversdale Rd both also had catch points on the downgrade leading to the crossing.

Mal Rowe - also noting the articulated boom barriers to avoid the trolleywires

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<Signals_Kooyong_16May2017.tif>

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

On 26/04/2025 19:23, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> I came across this photograph on Pinterest today. I suspect it has already been discussed on TDU, as it seems vaguely familiar. Is it a tramway signal, to indicate when to cross the railway line, perhaps?

Here's the old disc signal at Kooyong - now out of use.

You can see the current replacement - road traffic lights - with T lights.

Kooyong and Riversdale Rd both also had catch points on the downgrade
leading to the crossing.

Mal Rowe - also noting the articulated boom barriers to avoid the
trolleywires

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Cordite Ave

On 26/04/2025 10:25, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> Is the track as rough as it looks (or is that exaggerated due to use of a telephoto lens)?

It is certainly a bit rough, but nowhere near as bad as the tele lens
makes it look.

The 'official' focal length in the EXIF data is 200mm, but by the time
you take into account the sensor size on my camera and cropping of the
image it's probably equivalent to around 500mm on a standard 35mm camera.

Mal Rowe - prone to exaggeration in his photographs

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

Definitely Elsternwick, the building centre left is my parents newsagency, and the picture is taken looking towards Elsternwick junction.
Regards Bill whose parents bought the shop in 1956.

From: 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2025 11:36 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal
 
The photo is apparently at Elsternwick.

David


On 26 Apr 2025, at 9:09 pm, Andrew Highriser <andrewhighriser1@gmail.com> wrote:

It is as you suggest, mechanically controlled from the railway signal box. I think it would be showing a green lamp to the tram in this position, and the large red disc with red lamp ready to spin around before tram catch points were set to the derail position before the train level crossing.  

A good find, but where is it? I think tram route 67, either Elsternwick, but the railway line was lowered a long time ago, or Glen Huntley, more likely the latter. 

Andrew.


On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 19:23, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I came across this photograph on Pinterest today. I suspect it has already been discussed on TDU, as it seems vaguely familiar. Is it a tramway signal, to indicate when to cross the railway line, perhaps?

David

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

Getting back to the original reason for this topic, from https://yarratrams.com.au/planned-disruptions
"Service changes apply to Route 19, 57 and 59 tram". Scheduled dates are 4th July to 20th July. Presumably for the connecting tracks across Elizabeth Street.

Brian Weedon


On Saturday, April 26, 2025 at 9:54:39 PM UTC+10 Malcolm Miles wrote:

> …  My memory of the set-up at Elsternwick before lowering some 60-odd years ago is hazy but that seems to me more likely than Glen Huntley.

 

Elsternwick. The crossing has gone but the building on the left is still there.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

Malcolm

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

It is as you suggest, mechanically controlled from the railway signal box. I think it would be showing a green lamp to the tram in this position, and the large red disc with red lamp ready to spin around before tram catch points were set to the derail position before the train level crossing.  

A good find, but where is it? I think tram route 67, either Elsternwick, but the railway line was lowered a long time ago, or Glen Huntley, more likely the latter. 

Andrew.


On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 19:23, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I came across this photograph on Pinterest today. I suspect it has already been discussed on TDU, as it seems vaguely familiar. Is it a tramway signal, to indicate when to cross the railway line, perhaps?

David

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Swanston and Victoria Streets upgrade

From https://yarratrams.com.au/planned-disruptions
"Service changes apply to Route 19, 57 and 59 tram". Scheduled dates are 4th July to 20th July. Presumably for the connecting tracks across Elizabeth Street.

Brian Weedon

On Monday, February 26, 2024 at 10:30:05 AM UTC+11 Mal Rowe wrote:

The signal box has been 'cleaned up' since the pics on the Heritage site.

2016 pic attached.

All it currently is used for is a toilet block.

It would seem to offer a good basis for a coffee shop.

Mal


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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Anzac Station and Domain Rd

From https://yarratrams.com.au/planned-disruptions
" Buses replace trams along St Kilda Road due to Domain Road overhead work".
Scheduled for 13 June to 15 June

Brian Weedon

On Saturday, November 2, 2024 at 11:38:09 AM UTC+11 Mal Rowe wrote:

Domain Rd re-opened to road traffic on October 14th.

The ANZAC station website advises:

"In the coming months, bus Route 605 will extend further along Domain Road with two new stops.

The Route 58 tram will continue to run along Toorak Road West, providing a shorter and direct path to St Kilda
Road and maintaining the same platform interchange for citybound passengers at the Anzac Station tram stop.

We know the Metro Tunnel will change the way people use public transport services in the Anzac precinct.

Our planning will consider new travel patterns once the Metro Tunnel opens – as well as community feedback,
infrastructure requirements and vehicle movements in the area before making a decision on the delivery and
timing of any network changes."

So that seems to confirm that trams are unlikely to return to Domain Rd.

However the track connection and platform stops are in place - as shown in my attached pics from last Tuesday.

The overhead does not cross St Kilda Rd and the track beyond the crossover is unusable as it would require 'bang road' running to get back to St Kilda Rd.

Mal Rowe - taxpayer for new, redundant infrastructure

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: G class order and internal view

Not normally one to defend Yarra Trams, it has been quite good and getting staff trained and ready for new operations, which won't actually be a service increase, rather a different depot for existing services. I suppose some new depot staff will be needed, but depending on run out and run in times to begin and wrap up services, there wouldn't be a need for new drivers, or minimal at least. Retraining of existing maintenance staff from Z to G will happen. Most staff will be transferred, and a new depot without  more difficulty to travel to and from for staff, along with adequate parking should see plenty of drivers and maintenance staff happy to transfer. 

However, the new depot is all about space for larger trams and potentially increasing services. Until the G class trams enter service, there is little point in using the new depot, which will no doubt be well secured, with lots of cctv and probably patrolled at night by guards, as existing depots are.

Andrew.

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 at 09:56, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:
The hiring and training of said staff will take months too. If the the
first G is due in say 6 months, they have to start the hiring process
for the new depot now. Some may transfer in from other depots and not
need so much training, many others may need to spend a week or two down
at Dandenong being trained in G class maintenance processes by Alstom
even before the first car is transferred to Maidstone.


On 23/4/25 09:47, Mal Rowe wrote:
>
> On 22/04/2025 23:44, timmy1041 wrote:
>> Mal,
>>        With Maidstone Depot pretty much complete and ready for action
>> and the first G Class still at least 6 -7 months away for testing
>> only, not service straight away,and with the 57 & 82 still to be
>> mostly Z for the next 12 -18 months is there any info on when these
>> routes will be moved from Essendon as obviously
>> they will not wait until there is enough G's for the full service.
>>
> I don't know Tim, but would be surprised if Maidstone becomes fully
> operational before it is needed - staff cost money.
>
> Mal
>

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: G class order and internal view

I get that Mal but i would have thought that it wuld cost more if not the same to have it just sitting there and contributing nothing to the tram system and be a draw card for the fine vandals/graffiti element of that part of melbourne.Even if it only stores and runs the Z's on the 57/82 for now with minimal maintenence for now,at least there will be people constantly on site,exactly like the change from E/Preston to New Prestoon, send qall the Essendon Z's to the new depot along with enough drivers to fill the tables for that week and have the rivers shared between both depots so they can still do  58 & 59 as the original idea was,with any Z3 tables for the 58/59 in the short term run from Maidstone.
On Wednesday, 23 April 2025 at 09:47:29 UTC+10 Mal Rowe wrote:

On 22/04/2025 23:44, timmy1041 wrote:
> Mal,
>        With Maidstone Depot pretty much complete and ready for action
> and the first G Class still at least 6 -7 months away for testing
> only, not service straight away,and with the 57 & 82 still to be
> mostly Z for the next 12 -18 months is there any info on when these
> routes will be moved from Essendon as obviously
> they will not wait until there is enough G's for the full service.
>
I don't know Tim, but would be surprised if Maidstone becomes fully
operational before it is needed - staff cost money.

Mal

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: G class order and internal view

The hiring and training of said staff will take months too. If the the
first G is due in say 6 months, they have to start the hiring process
for the new depot now. Some may transfer in from other depots and not
need so much training, many others may need to spend a week or two down
at Dandenong being trained in G class maintenance processes by Alstom
even before the first car is transferred to Maidstone.


On 23/4/25 09:47, Mal Rowe wrote:
>
> On 22/04/2025 23:44, timmy1041 wrote:
>> Mal,
>>        With Maidstone Depot pretty much complete and ready for action
>> and the first G Class still at least 6 -7 months away for testing
>> only, not service straight away,and with the 57 & 82 still to be
>> mostly Z for the next 12 -18 months is there any info on when these
>> routes will be moved from Essendon as obviously
>> they will not wait until there is enough G's for the full service.
>>
> I don't know Tim, but would be surprised if Maidstone becomes fully
> operational before it is needed - staff cost money.
>
> Mal
>

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: G class order and internal view

On 22/04/2025 23:44, timmy1041 wrote:
> Mal,
>        With Maidstone Depot pretty much complete and ready for action
> and the first G Class still at least 6 -7 months away for testing
> only, not service straight away,and with the 57 & 82 still to be
> mostly Z for the next 12 -18 months is there any info on when these
> routes will be moved from Essendon as obviously
> they will not wait until there is enough G's for the full service.
>
I don't know Tim, but would be surprised if Maidstone becomes fully
operational before it is needed - staff cost money.

Mal

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: G class order and internal view

Mal,
       With Maidstone Depot pretty much complete and ready for action and the first G Class still at least 6 -7 months away for testing only, not service straight away,and with the 57 & 82 still to be mostly Z for the next 12 -18 months is there any info on when these routes will be moved from Essendon as obviously 
they will not wait until there is enough G's for the full service.

                         Regards Tim
On Tuesday, 22 April 2025 at 17:07:19 UTC+10 Mal Rowe wrote:
On 22/04/2025 15:54, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> Thank you Mal. Always good to see a bit of technical information
> coming through.
>
> Would be interested to know if the aisle is wider through the truck on
> the centre module. That's the primary reason for compromising on fixed
> trucks, so will be interesting to see if Altsom has followed through
> on that.
>
Yes, that is the case.

In the attached interior shot of the mock up you can see the wider aisle
through the centre section in the foreground and the narrow aisle above
the rotating trucks in the distance.

Mal Rowe who is in the photo because only half the tram was built and so
half the picture is a reflection in a mirror.

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: G class order and internal view

Thank you Mal. Always good to see a bit of technical information coming through.

Would be interested to know if the aisle is wider through the truck on the centre module. That's the primary reason for compromising on fixed trucks, so will be interesting to see if Altsom has followed through on that.

Tony P

On Tuesday, 22 April 2025 at 13:45:22 UTC+10 Mal Rowe wrote:
The attached cut away view is from a PTV brochure and shows the general
internal layout of the G class trams for Melbourne.

I have had it confirmed that the delivery date for the first few G class
cars will be around the end of the year when they will start testing
from Maidstone.

I have also had confirmation that there are options in the contract for
three extensions of 60 more cars each - giving the potential total of
180 more G class trams.

Those extensions will provide an option to go for the 5 section version
and other improvements identified once the first group enter service.

See: https://tinyurl.com/mwsxs7n8 for the 5 section general arrangement

Mal Rowe - looking forward to a ride.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

On 26/04/2025 23:36, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The photo is apparently at Elsternwick.
>
Definitely so.

Here's a pic by Ian Brady looking in the opposite direction along
Glenhuntly Rd (as it was then known).

The disc signals for trams in both directions are visible.

Mal Rowe - holding Ian's great contribution

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Saturday, 26 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

I came across this photograph on Pinterest today. I suspect it has already been discussed on TDU, as it seems vaguely familiar. Is it a tramway signal, to indicate when to cross the railway line, perhaps?

David

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Thursday, 24 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] Cordite Ave

On the eve of Anzac Day it is perhaps appropriate to share an image
related to 'those who also served' - the thousands of women and men who
made the explosives and munitions for Australian troops in wartime.

The West Maribyrnong tram line was built to take those workers to the
factories in Melbourne's west.  It runs beside the aptly name Cordite Ave.

Mal Rowe - who has just now noticed the concrete pillar visible at left
which probably supported a guarded securtity gate in wartime.

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Tuesday, 22 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] LED headlights on C1/D1/D2 class trams

Took a few fairly poor quality photos of some C1, D1 and D2 class trams that have been newly fitted with LED headlights.

Unlike the Z3/A/B2 classes, the LED lights appear to be a straight swap for the old globes.  Given that I have seen at least two trams with the old lights then with the new lights two days later, it would seem likely that they are being swapped over at the depots, not as part of some overhaul done at East Preston Depot.  No other modifications to the tram are visible (with possible exception below).

The C1 (Citadis) trams seem to be almost completed.  D1 and D2 trams are being done rapidly, though a few still had the old lights.  The C2 (Mulhouse / 'bumblebee') trams were done years ago.

One oddity is that the trams (as well as the A-series trams) seem to have been modified so that the headlights turn off and the tail lights come on (at the front) if the driver leaves their seat:  I saw D1.3517 with tail lights on at both ends at Swanston St terminus.  I suppose this is some kind of safety feature, but it is somewhat confusing at times:  from a distance of a block or so, it looks like an approaching tram is about to shunt - or the driver has suddenly taken it into their head to run bang road back up Collins St...

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: G class order and internal view

On 22/04/2025 15:54, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> Thank you Mal. Always good to see a bit of technical information
> coming through.
>
> Would be interested to know if the aisle is wider through the truck on
> the centre module. That's the primary reason for compromising on fixed
> trucks, so will be interesting to see if Altsom has followed through
> on that.
>
Yes, that is the case.

In the attached interior shot of the mock up you can see the wider aisle
through the centre section in the foreground and the narrow aisle above
the rotating trucks in the distance.

Mal Rowe who is in the photo because only half the tram was built and so
half the picture is a reflection in a mirror.

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[TramsDownUnder] G class order and internal view

The attached cut away view is from a PTV brochure and shows the general
internal layout of the G class trams for Melbourne.

I have had it confirmed that the delivery date for the first few G class
cars will be around the end of the year when they will start testing
from Maidstone.

I have also had confirmation that there are options in the contract for
three extensions of 60 more cars each - giving the potential total of
180 more G class trams.

Those extensions will provide an option to go for the 5 section version
and other improvements identified once the first group enter service.

See: https://tinyurl.com/mwsxs7n8 for the 5 section general arrangement

Mal Rowe - looking forward to a ride.

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Thursday, 17 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] 56 years ago in Brisbane

Sent from BlueMail

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: TDU at the pub this week

On 15/4/25 16:33, Mal Rowe wrote:
>
> He had been told that the current order for 100 G class will be
> followed by an order for a further 180 - which would see the end of
> the bogie cars and perhaps even the B class if true.
>
>
Well if Loftus is to continue to be the 'Australian Tramway Museum' we
better get started on where we will put A and B class trams.


I know some people who say we shouldn't have those 'modern' trams at
Loftus - but if we don't take A and B class, why keep any Melbourne tram
in Sydney ?. The W, Y and Z should go then. (Which would make space for
some Sydney tramcars to be repatriated).  No one would seriously suggest
those trams should be divested, but the Melbourne story didn't stop with
the Z, to keep the story correct, we need Melbourne A and B class when
they come 'off the road' to continue the Melbourne story thread.


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[TramsDownUnder] TDU at the pub this week

A reminder that this Thursday is the 3rd in the month and a booking has
been made at The Royal Exchange hotel in William St near Victoria Market.

You would be welcome to join us.

Mal Rowe attaching a pic of a tram in what was once nominated as the
"Garden State"on number plates

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Getting back to trams (again)

Sometimes at Port Melbourne late 1980s at night I would switch off all the tram lights and outside you could see the foxes wandering around. Sometimes they even came onto the tram stop platform looking for any discarded food scraps. 

As Andrew said, the former railway yards were just abandoned land with small scrubby growth.

Richard

On 9 Apr 2025, at 9:02 pm, Andrew Highriser <andrewhighriser1@gmail.com> wrote:


Very nice. I remember traveling on the 109 tram to Port Melbourne when it first opened, and it felt very country then, as it brushed past long grass along the trackside and terminated in what seemed to be nowhere. 

Andrew. 

On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 at 11:06, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:
On 09/04/2025 10:08, Geoffrey Hansen wrote:
> To be honest I love the sight of a tram running in the countryside.
>
... and in early days of electric tram expansion they sometimes did.

First attached pic is from the collection of Len Millar and shows what
the West Preston line looked like when built.

Second pic is from the collection of Melbourne Tram Museum and shows
what the tramway to Essendon Aerodrome looked when built in 1942.  It is
from the camera of Peter Duckett.

Mal Rowe noting the cattle grid under construction in the foreground of
the 'drome pic- to keep wandering stock off the tramway.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Getting back to trams (again)

Very nice. I remember traveling on the 109 tram to Port Melbourne when it first opened, and it felt very country then, as it brushed past long grass along the trackside and terminated in what seemed to be nowhere. 

Andrew. 

On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 at 11:06, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:
On 09/04/2025 10:08, Geoffrey Hansen wrote:
> To be honest I love the sight of a tram running in the countryside.
>
... and in early days of electric tram expansion they sometimes did.

First attached pic is from the collection of Len Millar and shows what
the West Preston line looked like when built.

Second pic is from the collection of Melbourne Tram Museum and shows
what the tramway to Essendon Aerodrome looked when built in 1942.  It is
from the camera of Peter Duckett.

Mal Rowe noting the cattle grid under construction in the foreground of
the 'drome pic- to keep wandering stock off the tramway.

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[TramsDownUnder] FW: Coffin

STM was well represented at Dick Hall's funeral today. Attached is a picture of his coffin.

Geoff O.

RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney M1 (Almost off topic)

From Wikimedia: An overcrowded East Preston tram with tram surfers moving along Brunswick Street, Fitzroy North

 

I remember that there is also a photo of men hanging off trams leaving the MCG somewhere in the TDU archives.

 

mgm

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Getting back to trams (again)

I can recall a few years ago, the description of a "big country town" being exemplified by a picture of a Brisbane tram out in the suburbs overtaking a farm tractor pulling a farm trailer along the street.

Brian
Bblunt3473@yahoo.com

> On 4 Apr 2025, at 17:06, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, the 'rules' do allow for discussion of electric trains but I must observe that a lot of our list members are not interested in the minutae of signage on the Sydney Metro or whether the doors close properly.
>
> Here's a diversion - a not terribly good photo that perhaps captures Brisbane in another era.
>
>
> Mal Rowe- who avoided using the description of 'a big country town with trams' (until just now)
>
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> <Brisbane_422_AdelaideSt.jpg>

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: TDU at the pub this week

On 16/04/2025 21:01, 'Mick Duncan' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> I like the A class
>
Me too.

They are of course the last bogie tram built for Australia.

They are simply a passenger carrying box on wheels without too muck
overt decorative styling.

I think of them as the current equivalent of another favourite, the
Melbourne X1.  They even have similar doors.

Mal Rowe - attaching a similar view but a little less park like.

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 370 to Stafford

681201Su-StaffordRd.RichmondSt-GordonPark(Brisbane.Qld)-dropcentre370.to.Stafford-RoderickSmith.

Roderick

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Tuesday, 15 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] Re: TDU at the pub this week

On 14/04/2025 17:14, Mal Rowe wrote:
...  attaching a pic of a tram in what was once nominated as the "Garden State"on number plates


Here's another shot of the rather park like Park St terminus at St Kilda.

Trivia alert:

Both trams are A1's but only 232 has the bump on the dash that once mounted the trolley rope reels.

End alert.

I had a brief chat with the driver of 234 who was pleased to see somone 'getting the coverage' on the A class before they go.

He had been told that the current order for 100 G class will be followed by an order for a further 180 - which would see the end of the bogie cars and perhaps even the B class if true.

Mal Rowe - not at all distracted by ugly tramway overhead wires.

Sunday, 13 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] A quick video about a broken down tram..!

"Ever wondered what happens when a Melbourne tram breaks down in the middle of the city? This video looks at one such occurrence on Collins Street in October 2024.”

 

By YouTuber Taitset

 

https://youtu.be/ww3Rat3I35M?si=OV22HLlPMFcfd-z0

 

Best wishes

Malcolm

Friday, 11 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 370 to Stafford

681201Su-RichmondSt.StaffordRd-GordonPark(Brisbane.Qld)-dropcentre370.to.Stafford-RoderickSmith.


Roderick

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Thursday, 10 April 2025

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Getting back to trams (again)

Ron

Prior to 1932, that part of Gilbert Road between Murray Road and Miller Street was named Elizabeth Street.

Brian Weedon

On Wednesday, April 9, 2025 at 10:31:18 PM UTC+10 Ron Stux wrote:
Elizabeth Street West Preston? Not Gilbert Road? 

Ron Stux now in Florida, but still remembers where the No. 11 ran (at least in the 1950's and on)

On Tue, Apr 8, 2025 at 9:06 PM Mal Rowe <mal....@gmail.com> wrote:
On 09/04/2025 10:08, Geoffrey Hansen wrote:
> To be honest I love the sight of a tram running in the countryside.
>
... and in early days of electric tram expansion they sometimes did.

First attached pic is from the collection of Len Millar and shows what
the West Preston line looked like when built.

Second pic is from the collection of Melbourne Tram Museum and shows
what the tramway to Essendon Aerodrome looked when built in 1942.  It is
from the camera of Peter Duckett.

Mal Rowe noting the cattle grid under construction in the foreground of
the 'drome pic- to keep wandering stock off the tramway.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Getting back to trams (again)

On 09/04/2025 22:31, Ron Stux wrote:
> Elizabeth Street West Preston? Not Gilbert Road?
>
Yes, of course!  I just grabbed an image that I scanned about 15 years
ago and didn't notice the wrong file name!

Thanks.

Here's another image - trams and street looking a bit different!

Mal Rowe - glad to be corrected

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Wednesday, 9 April 2025

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Getting back to trams (again)

On 09/04/2025 10:08, Geoffrey Hansen wrote:
> To be honest I love the sight of a tram running in the countryside.
>
... and in early days of electric tram expansion they sometimes did.

First attached pic is from the collection of Len Millar and shows what
the West Preston line looked like when built.

Second pic is from the collection of Melbourne Tram Museum and shows
what the tramway to Essendon Aerodrome looked when built in 1942.  It is
from the camera of Peter Duckett.

Mal Rowe noting the cattle grid under construction in the foreground of
the 'drome pic- to keep wandering stock off the tramway.

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Tuesday, 8 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] Trolley bases in Melbourne

On 07/04/2025 20:18, 'Mick Duncan' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
>
> It looks like the W2 has a US13 trolley base and if so were US13 tbs
> common on the MMTB
>
Yes - see attached official MMTB pic showing trolley base types in the
1950s.

I suspect the US13 bases were original equipment on the maximum traction
cars, as shown in the second pic.

Mal Rowe - who recently found from experience that a standard MMTB
trolleybase weighs over 40 kg!

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Monday, 7 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] 60 years before progress!

I have been sorting through some photos from the estate of well known
tram enthusiast Norm Cross and came across the attached.

Sorry about the stippled pattern - I only have prints and they are on
textured paper.

469, built some 50 years earlier  was on an ARHS fan tour and is passing
fairly new Z1 number 60 (which was probably also on.

It only took 5 decades for the design to catch on in Melbourne!

Mal

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 370 to Stafford

681201Su Richmond St, between Haig St and Stafford Road, Gordon Park (Brisbane, Qld) - Dropcentre 370 outbound to Stafford.  Roderick Smith.


Roderick

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Friday, 4 April 2025

[TramsDownUnder] Getting back to trams (again)

Yes, the 'rules' do allow for discussion of electric trains but I must
observe that a lot of our list members are not interested in the minutae
of signage on the Sydney Metro or whether the doors close properly.

Here's a diversion - a not terribly good photo that perhaps captures
Brisbane in another era.


Mal Rowe- who avoided using the description of 'a big country town with
trams' (until just now)

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Thursday, 3 April 2025

Re: [TramsDownUnder] My first test of AI

On 3/4/25 12:15, 'David Critchley' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
Hey group,  

AI is certainly an interesting beast.  To say it is 'intelligent' is probably more fantasy than fact, but that being said it is certainly a helpful tool.  As John Cowper alluded to; the response is very similar to some of his work in his book on the new SLR lines.   This is because AI, in very simple terms, scours the internet for 'answers' that best fit the question or activity requested.


Remember that 'LLM' 'AI' is a statistical beast - it's just hovered up every bit of information it can find and just generates an answer statistically. A wildly incorrect piece of information that has been quoted multiple times with out any real checking will be weighted better than the sole properly researched correct information - as the wrong answer was seen multiple times and the correct one fewer or even only once.

And the citation problem is sort of baked in, the LLMs basically work by sucking down enormous amounts of information, actually citing it all would result in a list of citations many times larger than the actual information part of the response.

Any decent human researcher keeps copious notes of sources and should be able to cite sources and often have to make value judgements on the accuracy of those sources.

This has happened even locally in our hobby - SPER's freight car 24s - the number of people who said 'will never run, doesn't have motors' was considerable. Multiple people reported 'but it doesn't have motors' when discussion of operating it came up. Few actually went down and looked under the car - which if they had, they would have seen the rather unique bogies did in fact have motors.....

Re: [TramsDownUnder] My first test of AI

Hey group,  

AI is certainly an interesting beast.  To say it is 'intelligent' is probably more fantasy than fact, but that being said it is certainly a helpful tool.  As John Cowper alluded to; the response is very similar to some of his work in his book on the new SLR lines.   This is because AI, in very simple terms, scours the internet for 'answers' that best fit the question or activity requested.  One of the big issues with AI is that it often does not provide sources, although it is getting better at that - I asked a question of AI a few weeks ago regarding tramcar safety and it gave me a excerpt from the Sydney Tramway Museum's Safety Management System (SMS) which is online but supposedly password protected!

As teachers, we have struggled with students using AI for a couple of years now, but it's there and we now have to accept it.  However, we recommend to our students (and probably importantly for anyone on here is writing about tramways) that if they are going to use AI, then always treat it as general information, not specific.   Therefore it should be considered as a draft and you need to re-write it/proof read it before you use it for publishing.  You also need to check sources and cite them where neccessary and always check spelling as AI uses the American spelling conventions.   

David Critchley
(Not written using AI)


On Wednesday 2 April 2025 at 08:47:25 pm AEDT, greg@hawkmount.com <greg@hawkmount.com> wrote:


Hi group,

I don't post very often but I do read most of the post here. I'm 75 years old fairly computer literate and decided to try AI for the first time this evening and I thought you might be interested.

This was my prompt, just testing it to see what it would do not trying to be significant, but I was very impressed with the result.

"write a short history of why the trams were removed from the streets of Sydney New South Wales in Australia"

This was the response:


The removal of trams from the streets of Sydney, New South Wales, is a story tied to urban development, technological advancements, and shifting transportation priorities. The tram network in Sydney began in the late 19th century, with horse-drawn trams introduced in the 1860s, followed by electric trams in the 1890s. By the early 20th century, Sydney had one of the largest and most extensive tram systems in the world.

However, the decline of the tram network began in the mid-20th century. Several factors contributed to the decision to phase out trams:

  1. Rise of the Automobile: After World War II, car ownership surged, and with it, the growing preference for private transportation. The expansion of roads and the increasing availability of cars led to a decline in tram usage.

  2. Suburbanization: As Sydney expanded outward, with the development of new suburbs, public transportation systems had to adapt. The tram system, which primarily served the inner city and some nearby areas, became less suited to the needs of a sprawling, car-dominated city.

  3. Political and Business Interests: In the 1940s and 1950s, there was strong lobbying from the motor vehicle industry and certain local businesses to replace trams with buses. Buses were seen as more flexible, cheaper to operate, and less reliant on fixed infrastructure like tram tracks. There were also financial pressures and a belief that buses could better meet the growing demands of Sydney's suburban expansion.

  4. Costs of Maintenance and Upgrades: Maintaining and upgrading the tram infrastructure was seen as costly, especially when compared to the perceived benefits of buses, which could use existing roads.

The final decision to remove trams was made in the 1950s, and the last tram ran in 1961. The network was replaced with buses, which were seen as more cost-effective and adaptable to the needs of a modern, car-oriented city. Despite this, many people regret the loss of trams, and there have been ongoing discussions about reinstating tram services, with some parts of Sydney now reintroducing light rail systems.

The removal of trams remains a significant moment in the history of Sydney's urban transport and development.


Your thoughts would be very interesting, I'm guessing!

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: My first test o

It is a mish-mash of fairly generic information about why trams systems in many places were abandoned, and is only very loosely related to what actually occurred in Sydney, with just enough statements key dates etc to make it seem localised.

This illustrates a major issue with "retail" AIs.... they have access to a huge data sets but are quite poor of assessing the quality of the data, and its evidentiary value in terms of the question asked. 

Cheers,

Bill
On Wednesday, 2 April 2025 at 20:47:24 UTC+11 gr...@hawkmount.com wrote:
Hi group,

I don't post very often but I do read most of the post here. I'm 75 years old fairly computer literate and decided to try AI for the first time this evening and I thought you might be interested.

This was my prompt, just testing it to see what it would do not trying to be significant, but I was very impressed with the result.

"write a short history of why the trams were removed from the streets of Sydney New South Wales in Australia"

This was the response:


The removal of trams from the streets of Sydney, New South Wales, is a story tied to urban development, technological advancements, and shifting transportation priorities. The tram network in Sydney began in the late 19th century, with horse-drawn trams introduced in the 1860s, followed by electric trams in the 1890s. By the early 20th century, Sydney had one of the largest and most extensive tram systems in the world.

However, the decline of the tram network began in the mid-20th century. Several factors contributed to the decision to phase out trams:

  1. Rise of the Automobile: After World War II, car ownership surged, and with it, the growing preference for private transportation. The expansion of roads and the increasing availability of cars led to a decline in tram usage.

  2. Suburbanization: As Sydney expanded outward, with the development of new suburbs, public transportation systems had to adapt. The tram system, which primarily served the inner city and some nearby areas, became less suited to the needs of a sprawling, car-dominated city.

  3. Political and Business Interests: In the 1940s and 1950s, there was strong lobbying from the motor vehicle industry and certain local businesses to replace trams with buses. Buses were seen as more flexible, cheaper to operate, and less reliant on fixed infrastructure like tram tracks. There were also financial pressures and a belief that buses could better meet the growing demands of Sydney's suburban expansion.

  4. Costs of Maintenance and Upgrades: Maintaining and upgrading the tram infrastructure was seen as costly, especially when compared to the perceived benefits of buses, which could use existing roads.

The final decision to remove trams was made in the 1950s, and the last tram ran in 1961. The network was replaced with buses, which were seen as more cost-effective and adaptable to the needs of a modern, car-oriented city. Despite this, many people regret the loss of trams, and there have been ongoing discussions about reinstating tram services, with some parts of Sydney now reintroducing light rail systems.

The removal of trams remains a significant moment in the history of Sydney's urban transport and development.


Your thoughts would be very interesting, I'm guessing!

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