[TramsDownUnder] Parramatta

Some more pics from my visit to Parramatta last Saturday.

The Carlingford terminus is unassuming and a bit hidden from local roads
and shops.  Just south of the terminus the track goes single for a few
10s of metres to pass under Pennant Hills Rd bridge.

The depot is quite a long way (around 800 metre) along what will become
the new line to the Olympic Park.

A sign inside the depot caught my attention. The authorities clearly
like to still call their trams trains running on railways and their risk
appetite is a bit low when they think that 6 metres (standard overhead
height for trams) is 'low clearance'.

Mal Rowe - who liked the ride

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Thwarted on Saturday

On 24/02/2025 14:53, Mal Rowe wrote:
> I did manage to get a few snaps this morning on my way back to the GTCOTS

The morning sun certain;ly illuminates the beautiful.the Central Railway
Colonnade

Another shot from one of the 'occasional' days that lines L2 and L3 in
Sydney operate.

Mal Rowe - tongue in chhek

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025 - BOW COLLECTORS

Further to Tony's comment, A picture of H 377 being tested with a bow collector about 1936 on the Glenelg line is attached. It is understood it was only to be used in the reservation which at that stage had catenary overhead. Trolley poles were to be erected for the street running. Various pantographs were also tried on 378-380.

 

However, the late John Morphett (a grandson of Sir William Goodman), when researching MTT correspondence, found a letter dated 4 August 1925 recording that a bow collector was being tried on a B type "toastrack" car for use on the then on order four G type Birney cars. If this were conducted on the Port Adelaide system, it would have involved B type 40 which was the only one assigned to the Port system, primarily to accommodate the Tramways Band when it was being taken, while playing, to the MTT bandstand at Semaphore. (The band was disbanded in March 1925 when most music lovers for band concerts were found to be then travelling by car to attend, and even at Semaphore, they went by SAR train.)

 

The bow was designed to be mounted on a 10ft 6 inch roof. (The B type cars had a 10 ft 8 inch clerestory roof.)  In a second trial run, a tension of 7 lb was recorded as necessary to keep the bow on the wire. There would be a need to reinforce the roof cross members and an extra spring might be required.

 

A letter dated 1 October 1925 from Noyes Brothers claimed not to have been paid in full when this was supposed to be done on receipt of all components at the original price of £3270 per car, with four bows to follow. Subsequently on 7 October 1925, £200 was retained to cover parts damaged or not supplied.

 

A letter dated 26 February 1926 after the G type cars were in traffic, noted that the bow collector originally supplied had been modified and proved unsatisfactory and was returned, but four others were being made up but were not yet delivered. Meanwhile, a small tower (actually identical to those used on F type dropcentre cars) trolley bases and a single pole per car were fitted, the cost being offset against the cost of the bow collectors. Noyes Bros agreed to this. The Adelaide Birneys always ran with such an arrangement as in the attached picture, and it is unclear whether the four new bows were ever delivered. But if they were, and since the MTT had a well developed practice to "keep anything that might come in handy", perhaps one of them finished up on H 377.

 

John Radcliffe

 

From: 'Tony Galloway' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 24 February 2025 10:30 PM
To: tramsdownunder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025

 

Do you know how much trial running was done?

 

That it was a one man car used suggests that fitting the bow was a way of avoiding dewirements that the conductor would normally be there to deal with.

 

It's noteworthy that around the same time Adelaide was trialling pantographs and a Fischer bow on the Glenelg line.

 

Tony

On 24 Feb 2025, at 22:49, 'Robert Thomson' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

In 1933-34 One Man Dreadnought No. 129 was equipped with a Fischer bow collector. The overhead between Paddington Depot, Rainworth terminus and Wharf Street City was altered to allow its use.

 

Sent from my iPhone

On 24 Feb 2025, at 7:12 pm, 'Tony Galloway' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Thanks for reminding me it was the Rainworth line Peter.

 

I didn't know a bow collector was actually fitted to a Brisbane car, good to get new information.

 

Tony

On 24 Feb 2025, at 18:32, 'Peter Hyde' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

Dreadnought No 129 was fitted with a Fischer Bow Collector in 1933 for use on the Rainworth line. The overhead was also altered in the inner city area where the Rainworth service terminated,  as well as to the Milton Workshops.

Peter Hyde 

Sent from BlueMail

On 24 Feb. 2025, at 5:26 pm, 'Tony Galloway' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Brisbane converted the overhead on one line to be bow collector compatible, the fittings remained until the line was closed.

This happened around 1930, but likely due to the Depression the actual test operation never happened.

Someone from Brisbane could remind me which line it was, my memory fails me on that at the moment.

Three of the four Brisbane trams at Loftus existed at that time, it'd be interesting to know what cars BCC contemplated fitting with a bow.

Tony

 On 24 Feb 2025, at 18:03, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 
 Nice.
 
 David
 
 

 On 24 Feb 2025, at 6:00 pm, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:
 
 
 On 24/02/2025 17:12, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

 I'm not aware of any car in the SPER collection that should have a bow collector. (I could be very wrong though!)
 

 Closest to a bow collector is perhaps the panto on Berlin 3007.
 
 Mal Rowe on the spot at the time
 
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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025

Do you know how much trial running was done?

That it was a one man car used suggests that fitting the bow was a way of avoiding dewirements that the conductor would normally be there to deal with.

It's noteworthy that around the same time Adelaide was trialling pantographs and a Fischer bow on the Glenelg line.

Tony

On 24 Feb 2025, at 22:49, 'Robert Thomson' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

In 1933-34 One Man Dreadnought No. 129 was equipped with a Fischer bow collector. The overhead between Paddington Depot, Rainworth terminus and Wharf Street City was altered to allow its use.

Sent from my iPhone

On 24 Feb 2025, at 7:12 pm, 'Tony Galloway' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Thanks for reminding me it was the Rainworth line Peter.

I didn't know a bow collector was actually fitted to a Brisbane car, good to get new information.

Tony

On 24 Feb 2025, at 18:32, 'Peter Hyde' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Dreadnought No 129 was fitted with a Fischer Bow Collector in 1933 for use on the Rainworth line. The overhead was also altered in the inner city area where the Rainworth service terminated,  as well as to the Milton Workshops.

Peter Hyde 

Sent from BlueMail

On 24 Feb. 2025, at 5:26 pm, 'Tony Galloway' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Brisbane converted the overhead on one line to be bow collector compatible, the fittings remained until the line was closed.

This happened around 1930, but likely due to the Depression the actual test operation never happened.

Someone from Brisbane could remind me which line it was, my memory fails me on that at the moment.

Three of the four Brisbane trams at Loftus existed at that time, it'd be interesting to know what cars BCC contemplated fitting with a bow.

Tony

 On 24 Feb 2025, at 18:03, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 
 Nice.
 
 David
 
 
 On 24 Feb 2025, at 6:00 pm, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:
 
 
 On 24/02/2025 17:12, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
 I'm not aware of any car in the SPER collection that should have a bow collector. (I could be very wrong though!)
 
 Closest to a bow collector is perhaps the panto on Berlin 3007.
 
 Mal Rowe on the spot at the time
 
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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025

On 25/02/2025 18:13, Steven Altham wrote:
>
> Wasn't a bow collecter tested on the BIRNEY tram on shuttle bridge
> road to power street shuttle????
>
>
Yes - see:

https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/preview/7530572247887142706/319149190107254800

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[TramsDownUnder] Bow collectors - [Was: Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025]

Melbourne tried twice.

Once in 1924 with the Birneys on the Hawthorn to Bridge Rd shuttle and
later (in the 1930s) with a different design on one of the U class trams
on the Holden St / Brunswick Rd shuttle.

One of the problems was that they didn't stagger the trolley wire so
wear on the centre of the bow was excessive.

Mal Rowe - attaching a pic of a Birney with a bow.

On 24/02/2025 18:02, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> They also trialled it in Melbourne (on the Point Ormond line?).
>
> David
>
>

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025

Dreadnought No 129 was fitted with a Fischer Bow Collector in 1933 for use on the Rainworth line. The overhead was also altered in the inner city area where the Rainworth service terminated,  as well as to the Milton Workshops.

Peter Hyde

Sent from BlueMail

On 24 Feb. 2025, at 5:26 pm, 'Tony Galloway' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Brisbane converted the overhead on one line to be bow collector compatible, the fittings remained until the line was closed.

This happened around 1930, but likely due to the Depression the actual test operation never happened.

Someone from Brisbane could remind me which line it was, my memory fails me on that at the moment.

Three of the four Brisbane trams at Loftus existed at that time, it'd be interesting to know what cars BCC contemplated fitting with a bow.

Tony

 On 24 Feb 2025, at 18:03, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 
 Nice.
 
 David
 
 
 On 24 Feb 2025, at 6:00 pm, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:
 
 
 On 24/02/2025 17:12, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
 I'm not aware of any car in the SPER collection that should have a bow collector. (I could be very wrong though!)
 
 Closest to a bow collector is perhaps the panto on Berlin 3007.
 
 Mal Rowe on the spot at the time
 
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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025

Brisbane converted the overhead on one line to be bow collector compatible, the fittings remained until the line was closed.

This happened around 1930, but likely due to the Depression the actual test operation never happened.

Someone from Brisbane could remind me which line it was, my memory fails me on that at the moment.

Three of the four Brisbane trams at Loftus existed at that time, it'd be interesting to know what cars BCC contemplated fitting with a bow.

Tony

> On 24 Feb 2025, at 18:03, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Nice.
>
> David
>
>
>> On 24 Feb 2025, at 6:00 pm, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 24/02/2025 17:12, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
>>> I'm not aware of any car in the SPER collection that should have a bow collector. (I could be very wrong though!)
>>>
>> Closest to a bow collector is perhaps the panto on Berlin 3007.
>>
>> Mal Rowe on the spot at the time
>>
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>> <Berlin-3007_VictoriaPde_12June2004.jpg>
>
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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025

On 24/02/2025 17:12, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> I'm not aware of any car in the SPER collection that should have a bow
> collector. (I could be very wrong though!)
>
Closest to a bow collector is perhaps the panto on Berlin 3007.

Mal Rowe on the spot at the time

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Sydney light rail

The Parramatta Urbos 100 are not particularly well built cars. Not just the built in trip hazards, but loose panels, to the point they fall off. Some of the cars already have a battery pack cut out. The air conditioning that goes into low power mode when the car is on battery is developing way too many faults so cars are in service with an air conditioner cut out too.

Their vehicle tracking system the 'AVLS' is buggy and crashes often. If it goes out completely they have to suspend services, as the trams can not trigger the traffic signals on their own, the AVLS sends their location to the central server which then generates a TCS message that is sent to the RMS traffic management system.

If anything in that chain stops working, the trams stop as they can't clear the traffic lights. Seems a simple induction loop 'mass detector' in the road connected to the local traffic light control box was too simple for them.

They have cheapened out one one side (cheaply built trams) and overly complicated things on the other (dependance on the AVLS and communication between different systems for operations).

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - VTF 2025

On 24/2/25 16:47, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

My brother and I had a very nice day there yesterday. I didn't realise you could move 2107. I thought the pantograph and overhead didn't get on?

The depot yard and depot main are fine - at low speed and the complicated overhead around the depot end of Cross Street was adjusted to make it pantograph friendly some time back.

The mainline down 'Tramway Ave' needs more work, except for the X crossing pan in the middle of the scissors crossover, the fittings are all 'dual mode', but they have not been adjusted yet.

The modified Milan Ventotto has a pantograph too - as putting a pole back on the car required extensive bridge work on the roof. The original structure that held the pole when built in 1928 is long missing. So 2107 is not the only pantograph car at Loftus. (And the 'K scrubber' has both, a pole AND a pantograph!)

David

On 24 Feb 2025, at 2:32 pm, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I wonder how many other museums could field operable exhibits that differ in 101 years of age ?

2107 may not be 'available for traffic', it did move out for display under its own power.

C290 of 1896 and SLR2107 of 1997.

<101 years of tram - C290 + SLR2107.jpg>

I have to thank a couple of 'young kids' (high schoolers) who put a large amount of time and effort into cleaning the interior of 2107. The tram is possibly now cleaner than any time since it left the factory in 1997.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Sydney light rail

On 24/02/2025 13:16, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> Mal, did you stay through to Monday in order to ride CSELR? It would
> be interesting to hear your opinion of the modern Sydney tramways.
>
Hi Tony,.

I left this morning so only had time to see the CSELR, not ride. That
will have to wait until next visit - probably in October.

I did get out to Parramatta and travelled on the L4 route.

I was quite impressed, it is comfortable but a bit slow in the central
Parramatta area.  I guess that is a mix of the nature of the
pedestrianised precinct and the desire to not overtax the batteries.

Speed was excellent in the former Carlingford railway, but the trams had
a bit of a tendency to 'hunt' like Melbourne's C1s once they get a bit
of speed up.

I have attached a couple of pics.

The first shows car-set 2162 in Macquarie St.  Note the warning sign for
cyclists and the shared roadway.

The second pic shows a 'feature' that I discovered by tripping inside
one of the trams (twice - I am a slow learner).

The aluminium castings around the articulations between sections are not
flush with the floor - on either side.  They sit up around 15mm or more
and are a trip hazard.  Low floor yes, flat floor on.

Mal Rowe - impressed but a bit surprised about the floor.

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[TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - Vintage Tramway Festival 2025

SPER's first tram alongside SPER's latest tram.

(LP 154, SLR Vario 2107)

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 328 at Enoggera

681201Su  Enoggera terminus (Brisbane, Qld) - dropcentre tram 328 interior.  Roderick Smith.

Roderick

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[TramsDownUnder] Thwarted on Saturday

I arrived in Sydney on Saturday intending to explore the new tram lines
I had not tried out.

TfNSW had other ideas for L2 and L3  as shown in the first pic.

I did manage to get a few snaps this morning on my way back to the GTCOTS

Mal Rowe - who should not have been surprised

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[TramsDownUnder] Congratulations Sydney Tramway Museum

Sydney Tramway Museum celebrated 60 years of operation and 75 years of
tram preservation yesterday.

A huge crowd attended to join the celebrations and the loacl member of
NSW parliament presented a framed Community Recognition Statement.  She
stayed for several hours taliking with the STM people and was clearly
impressed.

Well done all at STM!

A couple of pics - first shows beautiful F class tram no 393 - an
operating tram 125 years old - with R class 1740 behind it.

Second photo shows the first tram preserved - LP class no 154. It began
as another F class car but was rebuilt into the classic Sydney 'toastrack'.

Mal Rowe whom enjoyed the rides and the conversations.

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[TramsDownUnder] FW: HOBART TROLLEYBUSES

Can anyone (maybe Roger Greenwood?)  advise the numbers of the decrepitations trolleybuses in the attached picture. The detail is sought by Richard Horne (see incoming e-mail below) who photographed the vehicles recently in Hobart during a visit from UK, where he worked for many years as a British Railways Heritage architect, though originally grew up in Adelaide and is our most preeminent authority on Adelaide's horse trams. Thank you

John Radcliffe

 

From: richard horne <rthorne475@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, 23 February 2025 4:15 AM
To: Radcliffe, John (Environment, Waite Campus) <John.Radcliffe@csiro.au>
Subject: HOBART TROLLEYBUSES

 

Dear John,

 

When I was in Hobart last April, I photographed these two trolleybuses, stored by the City Council. The fleet numbers I noted for them are clearly impossible (can't now recall how I got them), so I wonder if you would put the photos on TDU for me, with a request for their numbers? I can find no mention of them on the internet.

 

At the same location, but in covered accommodation, were the restored (by Bendigo) double deck tram 17 and single deck 39, along with the body of bogie car 118. In the open, next to the trolleybuses, was the lower deck saloon of tram 7. Elsewhere were two more bogie car bodies, completely wrapped up, so I've no idea of their identities.

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney light rail

Is the L4 Parramatta line a bit like the St Kilda and Port Melbourne Tramlines in Melbourne? 

Regards Geoffrey 

On Sat, 22 Feb 2025, 10:14 am Malcolm Rowe, <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:

I am in Sydney for the 60th anniversary of the tram museum. I planned to have my first ride on the CSELR, but it's not running this weekend due to track work. 

I should not be surprised I guess. 

Now on the train to Parramatta which apparently is running!

From Mal in transit

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[TramsDownUnder] Z1.26

Got down to Dandenong and had a look at Z1.26, now in the front yard at Membrey's Transport at 80 South Gippsland Hwy (west side, just south of the railway). Attached are three views of the tram.

Also of interest are the supports (photo Z1.26 truck).  The original trucks have been retained, complete with track brakes.  They have been welded to short vertical steel beams, which are bolted to concrete.  I do not recall having seen this done anywhere else.

Looking into the tram (I took a photo but it didn't come out well, as I was facing the sun), the far side centre door is covered by a large wooden cupboard that projects well into the tram - almost like an airlock.  I would be curious to see what the other side of the tram looks like, and what it is used for.

[TramsDownUnder] Mr Skyscraper

I made the attached pic on the way to dinner with TDU folk last night.

2069 is in Peel St at the Dudley St intersection near Victoria Market.

The backdrop is a wall of high rise buildings. mostly apartments
approved during the period when then planning minister Mathew Guy was
dubbed "Mr Skyscraper".

Mal Rowe who reckons that planning requires a bit of pride in the city
to balance the demands of developers

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 328 at Enoggera

681201Su - Enoggera terminus in Samford Rd (Brisbane, Qld) - dropcentre tram 328.  Roderick Smith.
The houses have all been demolished for road widening.  The further ones now have new houses on reduced blocks.

Roderick

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[TramsDownUnder] Heritage work at Melbourne's oldest tram depot

Essendon tram depot is the oldest depot still in service in Melbourne -
dating from 1906.

The windows on the north side of the shed have been exposed to the
weather for 115 years and, not surprisingly were showing the effects.

In recent months they have all been replaced with new windows to the
same design.

Mal Rowe - window watcher

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[TramsDownUnder] The usual group at the usual time and usual place ...

Some of the TDU list members will meet for dinner around 6pm on Thursday
next at the Royal Standard hotel in William St near Vic Market.

We would welcome you if you would like to join us to talk trams.

Mal Rowe a usual participant

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] "Getting the coverage"

On 10/02/2025 19:36, 'Bob Pearce' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> Noticed the trolley pole base on the roof of #184.
>
> Did all the Zs still have the bases, or were some removed from some of the Z
> trams?

The Zs and  the As built with poles do still have the base.

It was deemed simpler to leave the base on to provide the necessary
electrical termination point for the electrical cables (Pic attached).

Once the pole was taken off the issue of pole short circuit to the
trolley hook was eliminated.

Mal Rowe - who has seen some of the bases when removed - they were
rusted solid.

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] "Getting the coverage"

Noticed the trolley pole base on the roof of #184.

Did all the Zs still have the bases, or were some removed from some of the Z
trams?

Bob in Perth

Great pics btw.

-----Original Message-----
From: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> On
Behalf Of Mal Rowe
Sent: Monday, 10 February 2025 11:05 AM
To: TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [TramsDownUnder] "Getting the coverage"

Long term tram fan and friend Paul Nicholson refers to 'getting the
coverage' - meaning to capture images (and video these days) of tram
operations before they change.

The next big change for Melbourne will be the retirement of the Z class trams.
Z1 and Z2 classes are already gone and Z3s are being retired now.

The class leader (116) is already preserved.

Withdrawal will accelerate from the end of this year when the G class start to
enter service.

If you want to get more than one of the Zs in the pic, then Swanston St /
StKilda Rd and Maribyrnong Rd are the streets where more than one route has Zs
in service.

Mal Rowe - getting the coverage

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] "Getting the coverage"

Hi Mal,

How will the new underground affect that? 

Regards, 

Mark Skinner 

On Mon, 10 Feb 2025, 1:35 pm Mal Rowe, <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:

Long term tram fan and friend Paul Nicholson refers to 'getting the
coverage' - meaning to capture images (and video these days) of tram
operations before they change.

The next big change for Melbourne will be the retirement of the Z class
trams.  Z1 and Z2 classes are already gone and Z3s are being retired now.

The class leader (116) is already preserved.

Withdrawal will accelerate from the end of this year when the G class
start to enter service.

If you want to get more than one of the Zs in the pic, then Swanston St
/ StKilda Rd and Maribyrnong Rd are the streets where more than one
route has Zs in service.

Mal Rowe - getting the coverage

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[TramsDownUnder] Melbourne Metro tunnel and tram loading "Getting the coverage"

On 10/02/2025 14:17, Mark Skinner wrote:

How will the new underground affect that? 

Good question Mark,

A few observations, rather than 'answers'!

• At present, inbound trams on route 58 often have a large number of passengers transfer to the train at South Yarra - that gives them a faster arrival in the CBD and unless they want to go up William St drops them closer to their destination.  On the other hand if they want to get to Melbourne University or the Hospital precinct they would be likely to stay on the tram.
• Once Anzac station opens similar options will arise for the St Kilda Rd routes.  
• If passengers are aiming for the centre of the city, they will probably find the tram quick enough and avoid changing mode.  They would avoid going down to the tunnel and back up again in the city.
  
• However, if they are heading to the University / Hospital precinct it will probably be worth changing mode and going to Parkville station ... if they can be bothered.
• I can't see any likely impact on route 57 - there is no easy connection between that route and Arden station.

Mal Rowe who reckons that the only traffic generator for Arden when it first opens will be tram and train buffs going to the Public Records Office of Victoria.

[TramsDownUnder] "Getting the coverage"

Long term tram fan and friend Paul Nicholson refers to 'getting the
coverage' - meaning to capture images (and video these days) of tram
operations before they change.

The next big change for Melbourne will be the retirement of the Z class
trams.  Z1 and Z2 classes are already gone and Z3s are being retired now.

The class leader (116) is already preserved.

Withdrawal will accelerate from the end of this year when the G class
start to enter service.

If you want to get more than one of the Zs in the pic, then Swanston St
/ StKilda Rd and Maribyrnong Rd are the streets where more than one
route has Zs in service.

Mal Rowe - getting the coverage

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 328

681201Su Enoggera line (Brisbane, Qld) - dropcentre tram 328 outbound, on the last day of the route.  Roderick Smith.
I'm guessing that this is the curve into Samford Rd at Alderley.


Roderick

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] Hobart Double-deck Tram No 21

Thankyou David for posting other images of No 21. The one you attribute to 1920 attracts controversy because the location has never been positively identified. The tram seems to be on level roadway but few sections of the line out to Moonah and beyond could be described a "level".

From the GPO to Rupert Avenue (the beginning of New Town) its an ascending gradient.

From Rupert Ave to The Maypole its a descending gradient.

From The Maypole to St John's Ave its an ascending gradient.

From then on, its relatively flat, say slightly undulating, to the terminus at Glenorchy.

 

The streetscape is 'built up' all the way from the GPO to the Glenorchy terminus, except adjacent to Creek Road where there are some sports grounds and the Buckingham Bowls Club. Perhaps these were established on what was formerly "the bush" so could be the location of the photograph as the road is quite level at that location.

Roger Greenwood

From: 'David Critchley' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2025 6:34 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Hobart Double-deck Tram No 21

 

It seems that No. 21 liked the limelight.  I have two postcard images of this car (attached below) .  The earlier on I have dated as c1920, so when fairly new at an unidentified location.  Note that the car has no top mounted destination box and lights.  The second image I have dated around 1925 (based on passenger fashions)  and shows the tram at Lenah Valley.  

 

David Critchley

 

 

On Sunday 2 February 2025 at 02:50:28 pm AEDT, 'Roger Greenwood' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

 

This photograph of Hobart double-decker tram No 21 is interesting on a number of counts.

• As far as I know it has never been published, making it a 'first time view' for all.
• The location is Elizabeth St in the North Hobart shopping strip (not in Newtown Rd)
• The photo was taken from the upper deck of another double decker as evidenced by its foreground shadow. (No 21 is inbound for the Hobart GPO. The other tram is outbound for Moonah, Glenorchy, or Lenah Valley).
• There looks to be four people on No 21's upper deck: 2 seated passengers, one passenger emerging from the spiral staircase having just boarded at the Burnett St stop, and the conductor. (The spiral staircase is visible in the driver's vestibule).
• No 21 has just departed from the Burnett St stop (Identified by the white strip on the adjacent pole) and is now in Elizabeth St crossing over Burnett St.
• Visible evidence suggests late 1920s/early 1930s, details separately documented.
• The small building to the left of No 21 is the Rose Hotel (later Rose & Crown Hotel), licensed in 1831 and demolished in 1938, replaced by a much larger structure, the Empire Hotel, now trading as the Republic Bar & Cafe.

 

Evidence of the photograph being taken during late1920s/early 1930s:

 

Apart from the Rose Hotel, the streetscape offers little from which the photograph can be dated. The most reliable evidence is the tram itself. Using (the late) David Kirby's book "Hobart's Tram Trilogy" as a guide, No21 was built in 1917 and scrapped in 1940.

 

Visible are several modifications that provide evidence of when the scene was photographed. The most helpful is the destination box mounted on the upper deck fascia and which spells out the tram's destination. For night-time operation, the route is identified by coloured glass discs. This type of destination box was progressively fitted throughout the fleet from the late 1920s. Another pointer is the type of sliding bow collector fitted to No 21. Beginning from the early 1930s these were replaced by Fischer bow collectors, a special version having been developed to fit within the limited gap above the double deck trams between the canopy and the running wire.

Another modification is also visible, however not by its presence but rather its absence. Just when this modification was applied across certain classes of Hobart trams is not apparent but is mentioned here because its purpose is also not apparent. The modification applies to the two outer windows of the driver's vestibule. As depicted in the photograph, both panes are in 'as built' condition but when modified, both were divided by a horizontal glazing bead to create two uneven panes of about 5:1 ratio, the smaller pane being uppermost. Readers having a copy of "Hobart's Tram Trilogy" will find numerous depictions of both "modified" and "unmodified" vestibules. Some good examples are at P180 which include front views of the Moonah tram depot showing numerous double-deck trams having both full and split panes. It might be supposed that the smaller upper panes were to be glazed with red glass, which together with the rear vestibule light being left 'ON' would provide a night-time warning light for motorists and following tram drivers. I perused "Hobart's Tram Trilogy" for any mention of this modification but not surprisingly didn't find any reference. David Kirby's book is essentially about the sociological aspect of the Hobart tramways rather than a technical description.

Roger Greenwood

 

 

 

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