[TramsDownUnder] Re: Gold Coast Light Rail (Stage 4) under review...twice

I found that ABC article very obscure. This article covers the topic much more clearly.

https://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/gold-coast/infrastructure-australia-takes-big-coast-projects-off-priority-list-including-light-rail-stage-4/news-story/ec6edfb413275e68037a4bade5567ac5

It's Federal Government funding that's being cut and the Gold Coast light rail is being removed from the Federal government's infrastructure priority list. The GCLR rollout has relied heavily on Federal funding. The same cutbacks are happening in other states too. Tom Tate hasn't become a bus advocate. He's suggesting an interim solution if the next stage of the light rail can't proceed.

Tony P

On Wednesday, 29 January 2025 at 21:20:21 UTC+11 Alan Cooper wrote:

It appears that Stage 4 of Gold Coast Light Rail is under review - twice simultaneously.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-01-29/lnp-rail-promise-going-off-the-tracks-jarrod-bleijie/104872432

The current review by the Transport Department is going to be joined (duplicated?) by one by the Infrastructure Department.  Presumably the minister wasn't certain that the first one was going to tell him what he wanted to hear...

Am curious why the Mayor of the Gold Coast has gone from being strongly in favour of light rail to being a bus advocate.

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[TramsDownUnder] New tram for Prague

The first Škoda 52T for Prague has appeared off the production line, 13 months after the contract was signed. This is a new model, but derives from the Škoda Artic for Finland, developed in 2009. It has a lot of similarity with the Melbourne E and G classes, but, like the proposed extended G, divides the centre module into three with fixed bogies under two of the short modules. The bogies at the ends of the tram rotate. The tram is 32 metres long and can carry 243 passengers at 5 ppsm.

These photos show the aisle width that has been achieved through using fixed bogies on the centre modules. Bear in mind that this tram is only 2.5 metres wide, compared to the Melbourne trams' 2.65 metres. Better arrangements are also possible in the Škoda by virtue of the end bogies being located right under the nose and tail, not set back with an overhang as in the Melbourne trams.

In the photos, the rear seats haven't been fitted in this instance. The photo acknowledgement is stamped on the photos.

Tony P

(who senses a gradual coming together of standard tram design for both Melbourne and Prague)

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Leonora

I never cease to be amazed by the amount of detail captured in old glass plate negatives.

David


> On 27 Jan 2025, at 5:01 pm, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This pic of Leonora was posted to a facebook group today.
>
> No tram, but you can clearly see the tram track and the double overhead used there.
>
> Mal Rowe - noting that there was no need for double track or even a passing loop as they only had one tram!
>
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> <TowerSt_Leonora_1900s.jpg>

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 328

681202M - Roma St (Brisbane, Qld) - The morning after its last revenue run, drocentre 328 heads to Milton Workshops for burning/scrapping.  Roderick Smith.
Railway Hotel was demolished to make way for a new police centre.

Roderick

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[TramsDownUnder] Leonora

This pic of Leonora was posted to a facebook group today.

No tram, but you can clearly see the tram track and the double overhead
used there.

Mal Rowe - noting that there was no need for double track or even a
passing loop as they only had one tram!

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 370 at Bardon

681201Su - Bardon (Brisbane, Qld) - The last tram, dropcentre 370.  Roderick Smith.  The decorations had been applied at Stafford.  Many of the streamers had been ripped off in the rush to souvenir removable items.  The destination roll, controller, many window bars and most hand grips have gone.  The controller was returned eventually; this was the last of the northside trams to arrive at Light St Depot, after midnight.  I balanced getting photos with getting a spot aboard.




Roderick

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

All,

 

Dennis O'Brien agrees that it is Mike Giddey on 99u. Dennis says it is not him standing alongside, and I can't identify that person. David Rawlings? - maybe.

 

Dale Budd

 

From: 'Geoff Olsen' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 17 January 2025 7:07 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

 

Gents,

 

                I will say Mike Giddey on 99u and David Rawlings standing next to him looking at the overhead. Unfortunately both names should now be prefixed "The late."

 

Geoff O.

 

From: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com [mailto:tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Hunslet
Sent: Friday, 17 January 2025 1:05 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

 

Paul – Doesn't look at all like Dennis.   But I can't place either of the guys.

Hunslet.

 

From: 'pn1' via TramsDownUnder [mailto:tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, 16 January 2025 5:24 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

 

Any idea of the people in the pictures?

 

Looks like Dennis O'Brien with his hands on his head. Standing beside 99u. 

 

Paul in Melbourne 

(Currently in Cairns) 

 

On 16 Jan 2025, at 15:57, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:

The Sydney Tramway Museum is celebrating 60 years of operation on Sunday 23rd of February.

See: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyTramwayMuseum/

or https://www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/visit-us/upcoming-events/

I'll be there and look forward to meeting some of you.

Here are some snaps from my first visit - when museum operations were just 4 years old.

Mal Rowe marking 60 years of tram tracking

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

Gents,

 

                I will say Mike Giddey on 99u and David Rawlings standing next to him looking at the overhead. Unfortunately both names should now be prefixed "The late."

 

Geoff O.

 

From: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com [mailto:tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Hunslet
Sent: Friday, 17 January 2025 1:05 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

 

Paul – Doesn't look at all like Dennis.   But I can't place either of the guys.

Hunslet.

 

From: 'pn1' via TramsDownUnder [mailto:tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, 16 January 2025 5:24 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

 

Any idea of the people in the pictures?

 

Looks like Dennis O'Brien with his hands on his head. Standing beside 99u. 

 

Paul in Melbourne 

(Currently in Cairns) 

 

On 16 Jan 2025, at 15:57, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:

The Sydney Tramway Museum is celebrating 60 years of operation on Sunday 23rd of February.

See: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyTramwayMuseum/

or https://www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/visit-us/upcoming-events/

I'll be there and look forward to meeting some of you.

Here are some snaps from my first visit - when museum operations were just 4 years old.

Mal Rowe marking 60 years of tram tracking

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: One for the Sydney Tram Museum folk

It was certainly a breakthrough for the image of trams in Australia and, in Melbourne, on a par with the refreshing Harris trains.  But then they did silly things like try front door-only loading.

Tony P

On Friday, 17 January 2025 at 08:20:36 UTC+11 David McLoughlin wrote:

Mal wrote:

> The Z1/2 were .... built between 1975 and 1979 and refurbished 20 years later between 1995 and 1999. The last was withdrawn in 2016 after around 40 years of service. (pic
attached)

It is sobering for me to reflect that, as a child of Melbourne of the 1960s and 1970s brought up on the various pre-1956 W models, the Z1s were "my" new trams. And now all of them are retired, with perhaps one of them (111) in a museum. Fortunately, I am not a museum piece yet myself, despite being older than trams I always regarded as being new and enjoyed riding whenever in Melbourne.

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

Paul – Doesn't look at all like Dennis.   But I can't place either of the guys.

Hunslet.

 

From: 'pn1' via TramsDownUnder [mailto:tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, 16 January 2025 5:24 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

 

Any idea of the people in the pictures?

 

Looks like Dennis O'Brien with his hands on his head. Standing beside 99u. 

 

Paul in Melbourne 

(Currently in Cairns) 

On 16 Jan 2025, at 15:57, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:

The Sydney Tramway Museum is celebrating 60 years of operation on Sunday 23rd of February.

See: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyTramwayMuseum/

or https://www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/visit-us/upcoming-events/

I'll be there and look forward to meeting some of you.

Here are some snaps from my first visit - when museum operations were just 4 years old.

Mal Rowe marking 60 years of tram tracking

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

Mal,
Some memories from the old site!
We obviously crossed paths on the day.
Hunslet.

.

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: Brisbane tram, 1968, dropcentre 370 at Bardon

681201Su (Bardon?, Brisbane Qld) - dropcentre tram 370.  Roderick Smith.  After a hectic afternoon of chasing, we had a hasty dinner (hamburger?), then parked near Light St Depot, then went riding.  I suspect that this is at Bardon on 370's second-last trip there, before the party crowds descended.  Other photos show it being decorated at Stafford, and then at Bardon for the last departure.  Trees are obscuring the Google Earth view of what should be that house today.




Roderick

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: One for the Sydney Tram Museum folk

Mal wrote:

> The Z1/2 were .... built between 1975 and 1979 and refurbished 20 years later between 1995 and 1999. The last was withdrawn in 2016 after around 40 years of service. (pic
attached)

It is sobering for me to reflect that, as a child of Melbourne of the 1960s and 1970s brought up on the various pre-1956 W models, the Z1s were "my" new trams. And now all of them are retired, with perhaps one of them (111) in a museum. Fortunately, I am not a museum piece yet myself, despite being older than trams I always regarded as being new and enjoyed riding whenever in Melbourne.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

Any idea of the people in the pictures?

Looks like Dennis O'Brien with his hands on his head. Standing beside 99u. 

Paul in Melbourne 

(Currently in Cairns) 

On 16 Jan 2025, at 15:57, Mal Rowe <mal.rowe@gmail.com> wrote:

The Sydney Tramway Museum is celebrating 60 years of operation on Sunday 23rd of February.

See: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyTramwayMuseum/

or https://www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/visit-us/upcoming-events/

I'll be there and look forward to meeting some of you.

Here are some snaps from my first visit - when museum operations were just 4 years old.

Mal Rowe marking 60 years of tram tracking

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[TramsDownUnder] AO specials

No, not Adults Only, but rather the Australian Open (tennis tournament)
and it brings the Es to Flinders St to carry crowds to the event.

6036 is in my favourite colour for trams so I am a little less critical
of the AOA.

The S 185 on the windscreen is a number used to allow the system and
supervisors to keep track of the shuttle trams at events like the AO and GP.

That's a return to old fashioned 'run numbers' in the windscreen.

Mal Rowe - occasional local guide to tennis tourists

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[TramsDownUnder] Sydney Tramway Museum - 60 years of operation

The Sydney Tramway Museum is celebrating 60 years of operation on Sunday
23rd of February.

See: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyTramwayMuseum/

or https://www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/visit-us/upcoming-events/

I'll be there and look forward to meeting some of you.

Here are some snaps from my first visit - when museum operations were
just 4 years old.

Mal Rowe marking 60 years of tram tracking

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[TramsDownUnder] Re: One for the Sydney Tram Museum folk

The Z1s are younger than the Gothenburg M29 trams that they were originally derived from, let alone the similar and 15 years older Tatra T3.  Both of the latter are still in front-line service, with the T3 still being built new using components from the original trams. The only reason the Z1s are in museums is because of the usual Melbourne failure to follow through decisively on modernisation and upgrading, preferring to throw trams on the scrap-heap and buy new ones (fewer of them of course because the government won't fork out for the number actually needed). The Zs could have been rebuilt with low-floor sections and run as coupled sets to address capacity issues.

The M29's successor, the M31 from 1985, is meanwhile being modernised for further service. It's hardly worth pointing out that these are of the age of the Melbourne B class, which initially missed out on being low-floor, then missed out on being modernised with low-floor inserts.

https://railway-news.com/skoda-commences-gothenburg-tram-modernisation-project/

Tony P

(who thinks that local knowledge gets undermined by indifferent state governments)

On Thursday, 16 January 2025 at 10:23:32 UTC+11 David McLoughlin wrote:

Mal wrote:

> Sydney Tramway Museum has the only operational Melbourne Z1/2 type tram - and it is in the original orange.

When I first saw that tram at Loftus, about 2011, I marvelled that older Zs were still in daily service in Melbourne. IIRC even Z number 1 was still in service.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: One for the Sydney Tram Museum folk

On 16/01/2025 12:57, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The Z1s are younger than the Gothenburg M29 trams that they were
> originally derived from, let alone the similar and 15 years older
> Tatra T3.

The Z1/2 were based on the M28 - all of which are withdrawn.

The information provided from Sweden was out of date and incomplete
resulting in major re-design being required by Com Eng.

They were built between 1975 and 1979 and refurbished 20 years later
between 1995 and 1999.

They are electrically and mechanically completely different to the Z3 trams.

The last was withdrawn in 2016 after around 40 years of service. (pic
attached)

Mal Rowe who reckons the more recent refurbishment of the later Z3s
could have been limited to fewer trams.

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[TramsDownUnder] One for the Sydney Tram Museum folk

Sydney Tramway Museum has the only operational Melbourne Z1/2 type tram
- and it is in the original orange.

Here's a pic which may be an official MMTB photo of the car in fairly
new Bourke St Mall.

Mal Rowe who likes orange and yellow trams

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

Tony – I am not aware that is a problem, but I am probably not the right person to ask as I do not travel to Glenelg often. The main problem would be in the morning with people getting on at the railway Station, North Terrace, and going a couple of stops up King William Street to work. But the demand on those trams would be in the afternoon with Glenelg commuters wanting to go home. The Adelaide CBD is largely between the adjacent Rundle Mall and Pirie Streets stops, not spread along the whole of King Williams Street, whereas in Melbourne, my impression is that there is more of a CBD stretch from Spring Street to Spencer Street.

 

I often drive up King William street to get from one side of the city to the other, coming from King William Road on the south side of the city, and find the trams keep up fairly well with the traffic flow as they have no priority except turning into North Terrace west, If I am going into the city, I use the bus, my bus parallelling the tram route from south of Greenhill Road. Travel times on the bus or tram appear similar in that section.

 

John Radcliffe

 

From: 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 15 January 2025 2:47 PM
To: TramsDownUnder <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

 

John, does Adelaide, as a result, have a problem with tram capacity, causing Glenelg commuters to be unable to join trains because they're overcrowded with "freeloaders"?

 

Of course, there's always this :))

 

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/man-thinks-he-can-beat-adelaide-tram/video/3d7c92e555f730212d659d519fdb029b

 

I remember, some years ago, an Advertiser journalist beat the tram through the city centre on foot.

 

Tony P

 

On Wednesday, 15 January 2025 at 14:48:44 UTC+11 Radcliffe, John (Environment, Waite Campus) wrote:

In Adelaide, it is all free except that part of the Glenelg route between South Terrace (entering parklands reservation) and Brighton Road (leaving the reservation.

 

The trams replaced the previous "Bee Line" bus on a city circuit, also free, but the tramline is now extended from that to the Hindmarsh Entertainment Centre west, and the Botanic Gardens on North Terrace, going east, as well as King William Street and Jetty Road Glenelg.

 

John Radcliffe

 

From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Geoffrey Hansen
Sent: Wednesday, 15 January 2025 1:47 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

 

I remember trams being crowded in the Free Travel Zone or whatever you call it in Adelaide.

Regards Geoffrey

 

On Wed, 15 Jan 2025, 13:20 'TP' via TramsDownUnder, <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Very well said timmy, but I don't want to be seen as criticising the Melbourne tram system in its fundamentals.  It's a very competent system with a lot of knowledge and experience behind it, unlike any of the other Australian "light rails". I think the issue is governments that, as you say, talk the talk but not walk the walk. When you know the legacy European systems with which it compares, you see them relentlessly moving ahead in a way that Melbourne doesn't. This is because city councils and governments are behind them and put their money where their mouths are. Improvements like "last km" extensions to railway stations and shopping centres are routine for them. In Melbourne it doesn't even seem to be discussed.

 

And yes, I notice the defensiveness whenever I raise this! Probably because I'm from Sydney, but it's not a debate about whose system is better - indeed I'm embarrassed for the way the new Sydney system is operated. I'm just asking why? It just doesn't make sense compared to any other city I know. The trams should be able to easily cope with extra crowds, but for some reason they don't. As for the attitude that people who take advantage of a free service (actually paid for by their own taxes) are "freeloaders"- that's just disgusting. How are we to encourage more people to use public transport if that's our attitude towards potential customers?

 

Tony P

 

On Wednesday, 15 January 2025 at 09:58:30 UTC+11 timmy1041 wrote:

Why do we here in Melboure jump into defensive mode every time that someone from elsewhere has a different idea or cans the way the trams operate,fresh eyes or a new perspective can often be a good thing.Melbourne tramways have basically operated the same routes,same headways almost with little or no improvements or extensions to infrastructure,yes with a few exceptions, agreed ,but our tramway system is now lagging behind other systems now particularly european systems of similar size ,we seem to tak the talk but not walk the walk.How is it that some current european systems can run 30 -60 meter trams on narrower streets than us  with multiple routes seemingly without drama with connecting tracks at most junctions and seem to be constantly updating everything yet we can't even extend a tram line less than 1 KM to a railway station or even a 300 meter connecting track that would be a game changer for the network.It defies logic.The original cross city link proposal from 1992 would have revoloutionised the system and sorry Mal but could have longer trams in Swanston st without screwing the timetable by adopting the original proposal put forward some years ago when the E's started to arrive by having a dedicated 5 min shuttle along St.kilda rd/Swanston st  and having the southside routes operate to St.kilda rd only as feeder routes with layouts similar to the Arts center in the middle of each stop with a center terinating track with a couple of routes continuing on to west of the city destinations..So simple to implement but we don't like change here in Victoria....24 hr clearways,morepedestrian malls in the city etc etc we need to move with the times,platform/level access stops are a prime example,i could go on,even the proposal to run the 96/109 through Flinders st station a golden opportunity missed in my book.

 

On Tuesday, 14 January 2025 at 12:12:37 UTC+11 Mal Rowe wrote:

On 13/01/2025 21:08, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The problem is not the FTZ. The problem is that YT has too little tram
> capacity to move crowds. The whole fleet should be 30 metre trams.
> Instead, not only is there still a large legacy fleet of bus-size
> trams, but the problem is being perpetuated with the G class.
>
Sorry Tony, but Daniel Bowen has it right.  The free tram zone just
clogs up trams with people who could easily walk a couple of blocks but
choose not to.

A free zone ticket for tourists and eliminating the free ticket for
locals would be a good compromise.

Locals who travel to and from the city by public transport already have
a 'free ticket'.

As I have said before longer trams just won't work on the two main north
south routes in Swanston & Elizabeth Sts - their length means that only
one tram at a time could fit in the tram stops and that would destroy
the timetable.

William St gets away with E class because there is only one route using
the street.

Mal Rowe - trusting local knowledge.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

John, does Adelaide, as a result, have a problem with tram capacity, causing Glenelg commuters to be unable to join trains because they're overcrowded with "freeloaders"?

Of course, there's always this :))

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/man-thinks-he-can-beat-adelaide-tram/video/3d7c92e555f730212d659d519fdb029b

I remember, some years ago, an Advertiser journalist beat the tram through the city centre on foot.

Tony P

On Wednesday, 15 January 2025 at 14:48:44 UTC+11 Radcliffe, John (Environment, Waite Campus) wrote:

In Adelaide, it is all free except that part of the Glenelg route between South Terrace (entering parklands reservation) and Brighton Road (leaving the reservation.

 

The trams replaced the previous "Bee Line" bus on a city circuit, also free, but the tramline is now extended from that to the Hindmarsh Entertainment Centre west, and the Botanic Gardens on North Terrace, going east, as well as King William Street and Jetty Road Glenelg.

 

John Radcliffe

 

From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Geoffrey Hansen
Sent: Wednesday, 15 January 2025 1:47 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

 

I remember trams being crowded in the Free Travel Zone or whatever you call it in Adelaide.

Regards Geoffrey

 

On Wed, 15 Jan 2025, 13:20 'TP' via TramsDownUnder, <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Very well said timmy, but I don't want to be seen as criticising the Melbourne tram system in its fundamentals.  It's a very competent system with a lot of knowledge and experience behind it, unlike any of the other Australian "light rails". I think the issue is governments that, as you say, talk the talk but not walk the walk. When you know the legacy European systems with which it compares, you see them relentlessly moving ahead in a way that Melbourne doesn't. This is because city councils and governments are behind them and put their money where their mouths are. Improvements like "last km" extensions to railway stations and shopping centres are routine for them. In Melbourne it doesn't even seem to be discussed.

 

And yes, I notice the defensiveness whenever I raise this! Probably because I'm from Sydney, but it's not a debate about whose system is better - indeed I'm embarrassed for the way the new Sydney system is operated. I'm just asking why? It just doesn't make sense compared to any other city I know. The trams should be able to easily cope with extra crowds, but for some reason they don't. As for the attitude that people who take advantage of a free service (actually paid for by their own taxes) are "freeloaders"- that's just disgusting. How are we to encourage more people to use public transport if that's our attitude towards potential customers?

 

Tony P

 

On Wednesday, 15 January 2025 at 09:58:30 UTC+11 timmy1041 wrote:

Why do we here in Melboure jump into defensive mode every time that someone from elsewhere has a different idea or cans the way the trams operate,fresh eyes or a new perspective can often be a good thing.Melbourne tramways have basically operated the same routes,same headways almost with little or no improvements or extensions to infrastructure,yes with a few exceptions, agreed ,but our tramway system is now lagging behind other systems now particularly european systems of similar size ,we seem to tak the talk but not walk the walk.How is it that some current european systems can run 30 -60 meter trams on narrower streets than us  with multiple routes seemingly without drama with connecting tracks at most junctions and seem to be constantly updating everything yet we can't even extend a tram line less than 1 KM to a railway station or even a 300 meter connecting track that would be a game changer for the network.It defies logic.The original cross city link proposal from 1992 would have revoloutionised the system and sorry Mal but could have longer trams in Swanston st without screwing the timetable by adopting the original proposal put forward some years ago when the E's started to arrive by having a dedicated 5 min shuttle along St.kilda rd/Swanston st  and having the southside routes operate to St.kilda rd only as feeder routes with layouts similar to the Arts center in the middle of each stop with a center terinating track with a couple of routes continuing on to west of the city destinations..So simple to implement but we don't like change here in Victoria....24 hr clearways,morepedestrian malls in the city etc etc we need to move with the times,platform/level access stops are a prime example,i could go on,even the proposal to run the 96/109 through Flinders st station a golden opportunity missed in my book.

 

On Tuesday, 14 January 2025 at 12:12:37 UTC+11 Mal Rowe wrote:

On 13/01/2025 21:08, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The problem is not the FTZ. The problem is that YT has too little tram
> capacity to move crowds. The whole fleet should be 30 metre trams.
> Instead, not only is there still a large legacy fleet of bus-size
> trams, but the problem is being perpetuated with the G class.
>
Sorry Tony, but Daniel Bowen has it right.  The free tram zone just
clogs up trams with people who could easily walk a couple of blocks but
choose not to.

A free zone ticket for tourists and eliminating the free ticket for
locals would be a good compromise.

Locals who travel to and from the city by public transport already have
a 'free ticket'.

As I have said before longer trams just won't work on the two main north
south routes in Swanston & Elizabeth Sts - their length means that only
one tram at a time could fit in the tram stops and that would destroy
the timetable.

William St gets away with E class because there is only one route using
the street.

Mal Rowe - trusting local knowledge.

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RE: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

In Adelaide, it is all free except that part of the Glenelg route between South Terrace (entering parklands reservation) and Brighton Road (leaving the reservation.

 

The trams replaced the previous "Bee Line" bus on a city circuit, also free, but the tramline is now extended from that to the Hindmarsh Entertainment Centre west, and the Botanic Gardens on North Terrace, going east, as well as King William Street and Jetty Road Glenelg.

 

John Radcliffe

 

From: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Geoffrey Hansen
Sent: Wednesday, 15 January 2025 1:47 PM
To: tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

 

I remember trams being crowded in the Free Travel Zone or whatever you call it in Adelaide.

Regards Geoffrey

 

On Wed, 15 Jan 2025, 13:20 'TP' via TramsDownUnder, <tramsdownunder@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Very well said timmy, but I don't want to be seen as criticising the Melbourne tram system in its fundamentals.  It's a very competent system with a lot of knowledge and experience behind it, unlike any of the other Australian "light rails". I think the issue is governments that, as you say, talk the talk but not walk the walk. When you know the legacy European systems with which it compares, you see them relentlessly moving ahead in a way that Melbourne doesn't. This is because city councils and governments are behind them and put their money where their mouths are. Improvements like "last km" extensions to railway stations and shopping centres are routine for them. In Melbourne it doesn't even seem to be discussed.

 

And yes, I notice the defensiveness whenever I raise this! Probably because I'm from Sydney, but it's not a debate about whose system is better - indeed I'm embarrassed for the way the new Sydney system is operated. I'm just asking why? It just doesn't make sense compared to any other city I know. The trams should be able to easily cope with extra crowds, but for some reason they don't. As for the attitude that people who take advantage of a free service (actually paid for by their own taxes) are "freeloaders"- that's just disgusting. How are we to encourage more people to use public transport if that's our attitude towards potential customers?

 

Tony P

 

On Wednesday, 15 January 2025 at 09:58:30 UTC+11 timmy1041 wrote:

Why do we here in Melboure jump into defensive mode every time that someone from elsewhere has a different idea or cans the way the trams operate,fresh eyes or a new perspective can often be a good thing.Melbourne tramways have basically operated the same routes,same headways almost with little or no improvements or extensions to infrastructure,yes with a few exceptions, agreed ,but our tramway system is now lagging behind other systems now particularly european systems of similar size ,we seem to tak the talk but not walk the walk.How is it that some current european systems can run 30 -60 meter trams on narrower streets than us  with multiple routes seemingly without drama with connecting tracks at most junctions and seem to be constantly updating everything yet we can't even extend a tram line less than 1 KM to a railway station or even a 300 meter connecting track that would be a game changer for the network.It defies logic.The original cross city link proposal from 1992 would have revoloutionised the system and sorry Mal but could have longer trams in Swanston st without screwing the timetable by adopting the original proposal put forward some years ago when the E's started to arrive by having a dedicated 5 min shuttle along St.kilda rd/Swanston st  and having the southside routes operate to St.kilda rd only as feeder routes with layouts similar to the Arts center in the middle of each stop with a center terinating track with a couple of routes continuing on to west of the city destinations..So simple to implement but we don't like change here in Victoria....24 hr clearways,morepedestrian malls in the city etc etc we need to move with the times,platform/level access stops are a prime example,i could go on,even the proposal to run the 96/109 through Flinders st station a golden opportunity missed in my book.

 

On Tuesday, 14 January 2025 at 12:12:37 UTC+11 Mal Rowe wrote:

On 13/01/2025 21:08, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The problem is not the FTZ. The problem is that YT has too little tram
> capacity to move crowds. The whole fleet should be 30 metre trams.
> Instead, not only is there still a large legacy fleet of bus-size
> trams, but the problem is being perpetuated with the G class.
>
Sorry Tony, but Daniel Bowen has it right.  The free tram zone just
clogs up trams with people who could easily walk a couple of blocks but
choose not to.

A free zone ticket for tourists and eliminating the free ticket for
locals would be a good compromise.

Locals who travel to and from the city by public transport already have
a 'free ticket'.

As I have said before longer trams just won't work on the two main north
south routes in Swanston & Elizabeth Sts - their length means that only
one tram at a time could fit in the tram stops and that would destroy
the timetable.

William St gets away with E class because there is only one route using
the street.

Mal Rowe - trusting local knowledge.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

Very well said timmy, but I don't want to be seen as criticising the Melbourne tram system in its fundamentals.  It's a very competent system with a lot of knowledge and experience behind it, unlike any of the other Australian "light rails". I think the issue is governments that, as you say, talk the talk but not walk the walk. When you know the legacy European systems with which it compares, you see them relentlessly moving ahead in a way that Melbourne doesn't. This is because city councils and governments are behind them and put their money where their mouths are. Improvements like "last km" extensions to railway stations and shopping centres are routine for them. In Melbourne it doesn't even seem to be discussed.

And yes, I notice the defensiveness whenever I raise this! Probably because I'm from Sydney, but it's not a debate about whose system is better - indeed I'm embarrassed for the way the new Sydney system is operated. I'm just asking why? It just doesn't make sense compared to any other city I know. The trams should be able to easily cope with extra crowds, but for some reason they don't. As for the attitude that people who take advantage of a free service (actually paid for by their own taxes) are "freeloaders"- that's just disgusting. How are we to encourage more people to use public transport if that's our attitude towards potential customers?

Tony P

On Wednesday, 15 January 2025 at 09:58:30 UTC+11 timmy1041 wrote:

Why do we here in Melboure jump into defensive mode every time that someone from elsewhere has a different idea or cans the way the trams operate,fresh eyes or a new perspective can often be a good thing.Melbourne tramways have basically operated the same routes,same headways almost with little or no improvements or extensions to infrastructure,yes with a few exceptions, agreed ,but our tramway system is now lagging behind other systems now particularly european systems of similar size ,we seem to tak the talk but not walk the walk.How is it that some current european systems can run 30 -60 meter trams on narrower streets than us  with multiple routes seemingly without drama with connecting tracks at most junctions and seem to be constantly updating everything yet we can't even extend a tram line less than 1 KM to a railway station or even a 300 meter connecting track that would be a game changer for the network.It defies logic.The original cross city link proposal from 1992 would have revoloutionised the system and sorry Mal but could have longer trams in Swanston st without screwing the timetable by adopting the original proposal put forward some years ago when the E's started to arrive by having a dedicated 5 min shuttle along St.kilda rd/Swanston st  and having the southside routes operate to St.kilda rd only as feeder routes with layouts similar to the Arts center in the middle of each stop with a center terinating track with a couple of routes continuing on to west of the city destinations..So simple to implement but we don't like change here in Victoria....24 hr clearways,morepedestrian malls in the city etc etc we need to move with the times,platform/level access stops are a prime example,i could go on,even the proposal to run the 96/109 through Flinders st station a golden opportunity missed in my book.

On Tuesday, 14 January 2025 at 12:12:37 UTC+11 Mal Rowe wrote:

On 13/01/2025 21:08, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The problem is not the FTZ. The problem is that YT has too little tram
> capacity to move crowds. The whole fleet should be 30 metre trams.
> Instead, not only is there still a large legacy fleet of bus-size
> trams, but the problem is being perpetuated with the G class.
>
Sorry Tony, but Daniel Bowen has it right.  The free tram zone just
clogs up trams with people who could easily walk a couple of blocks but
choose not to.

A free zone ticket for tourists and eliminating the free ticket for
locals would be a good compromise.

Locals who travel to and from the city by public transport already have
a 'free ticket'.

As I have said before longer trams just won't work on the two main north
south routes in Swanston & Elizabeth Sts - their length means that only
one tram at a time could fit in the tram stops and that would destroy
the timetable.

William St gets away with E class because there is only one route using
the street.

Mal Rowe - trusting local knowledge.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

Robert, it is hard to imagine what the general public will do when the new underground opens. There are many St Kilda Road workers who catch trams from Flinders Street Station who will have come in from the Dandenoung/Cranbourne train lines, along with from the Sunbury line. While I live close to Anzac Station and of course I've thought about whether I will use the new line to get to town, I really don't know. A tram might be quicker but it depends where in the city I want to go. The train to the northern end of the city might be quicker, but probably not to Flinders Street. After attending the open day for Anzac Station, it seems to be quite a simple and quick process to get to a train platform, but then how long to wait for a train has not been announced yet, and what is the exit process like in the city stations?

Fortnightly I catch a 58 tram to South Yarra Station and a train to Murrumebeena on the Dandenong line. Once Anzac Station opens, I will just use Anzac Station. The mobs of MGS and MacRob students will no longer crowd the 58 tram to and from South Yarra but use Anzac Station. Alfred Hospital workers on the aforesaid line who catch the 58 tram from South Yarra to Fawkner Park and walk to the hospital will stay on to Anzac Station and catch a tram from there. 

I don't think any modelling can predict how people will use the Metro Tunnel, but it will certainly be a game changer. 

Andrew.  

On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 19:45, Robert Smith <rksmith.63@outlook.com> wrote:

Andrew,

I don't believe that the opening of the Metro tunnel will affect tram passengers numbers for those heading into the city. It will be quicker to get a tram from ANZAC Station to the CBD then head down into the station catch the train and then head back to surface level, with the removal (?) Of the transferring of some Swanson Street route to the west side of the city, I can't see any relief for CBD trams in the near future.

On Monday, 13 January 2025 at 9:32:24 pm UTC+11 Andrew Highriser wrote:

Tony, the tram capacity for Melbourne's busiest tram street is adequate, as it is for other tram streets. It is the management and unevenness of the service that's the problem. Once the Metro Tunnel opens, who knows what tram passenger loading will be. Most of Melbourne's tram problems come down to very poor management that operates the system to meet performance targets, rather than what is best for passengers. I believe former Premier Kennett in the 1990s was the one who first set performance targets, and so took away the power of hands on management to do its best to manage the system for passengers. 

Andrew. 

On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 at 21:08, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

The problem is not the FTZ. The problem is that YT has too little tram capacity to move crowds. The whole fleet should be 30 metre trams. Instead, not only is there still a large legacy fleet of bus-size trams, but the problem is being perpetuated with the G class.

Tony P

On Monday, 13 January 2025 at 20:40:33 UTC+11 Alan Cooper wrote:

The Free Tram Zone (Melbourne CBD) has got a mention in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/jan/12/melbourne-free-trams-experiment-decade-critics

I do not expect anything to change.  The FTZ is like negative gearing:  counterproductive and damaging but popular.  It is politically impossible to get rid of it as doing so would cost too many votes.

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